This post and your exegesis is super helpful, Aaron. Thank you! We plan to read those resources and watch Columbo again. The burden of proof is on leaders to persuade and good leaders will be wise to remember that their actions need to follow the theology they preach. Persuasion happens when there is congruency between honest words and authentic actions. The proof is in the pudding!
Aaron, thanks for this post. I hadn't dug into the Greek word which is (mis-)translated 'obey' in verse 17, so you've added to my understanding of this.
Most church leaders focus on Hebrews 13:17. However, verse 7 in the same chapter says: "Remember those who have the oversight of you, who have declared to you the word of God. See that you look upon the way they live out their life, and follow their faith."
The ones having oversight over the congregation need to be able to rightly divide the word of truth, i.e., rightly explain and apply what the Bible teaches. If the Elders do a poor job of that — if they twist, selectively hammer, and misapply the word — they ought not be in the position of overseer!
Verse 7 also tells us to look at the way the Elders are living out their lives. In other words, use your brain, your capacity to think independently, and ask yourself: Is what this Elder says consistent with what he does?
If you have not been brainwashed, if you observe and are discerning and can think independently, you may notice gigantic inconsistencies between their rhetoric and their conduct.
Often these discrepancies are particularly obvious when it comes to the way Elders deal with interpersonal abuse and oppression, i.e., injustice perpetrated by the more powerful onto the less powerful.
Thanks Barbara! Great thoughts. Strange that we are encouraged to be discerning about some matters (culture, worldliness, etc.), but not others (leader conduct). As you point out, we can’t properly follow our leaders’ faith if we aren’t able to discern when they are straying from Scripture.
I found 9 red flags in the 1984 NIV in this verse alone...
♦1 Obey your♦2 leaders and (#9) submit to their♦3 authority. They keep watch♦4 over you as♦5 men who must give an account. ♦6 Obey them so that their♦7 work will be a joy, not a♦8 burden, for that would be of no advantage to you…
The following is a summary, if you are interested in the expanded version, I can email you my document:
1) "Obey..." is not peitho -> be persuaded by - other Greek words that mean obey
2) '"...your leaders..." is not a NOUN in the Greek, it's a verb -> to lead by example, as someone with more experience/maturity, it's not about a title, but one's actions.
3) "...authority..." this word is not in the Greek AT ALL!!! (authoritarian bias?)
4) "... over..." implies hierarchical authority, the Greek is for, on behalf of, for the benefit of, for their protection, for their good...
5) "... men..." sorry guys, no men in the Greek either, but a gender neutral "they"...
6) "Obey..." Guess what, there is no Greek word here for obey AT ALL!!! again, a word added that supports a probabe authoritarian bias.
7) ..."work"... the Greek is a generic "do this", using "work" implies that those in their care are draining the leaders resources, especially when added with...
8) "burden"... which the Greek is grieving over
9). "submit"... in a non military context, the Greek is understood to mean cooperate/collaborate/share the responsibilities...
Here is my revised version based on my research of the Greek...
HEBREWS 13:17 EXPANDED BASED ON GREEK: Be open to being persuaded by those who go before/are ahead of you/more mature in the faith, and let them influence/instruct you through their integrity and righteous actions & words, as Godly examples for how to live, for they look out for you to spiritually benefit and protect you… follow their example of obeying God’s principles, then their lives are filled with joy as they share with you and about you, excited about what God is doing in your life, instead of grieving for you because you are not doing what’s godly and right… these mature believers are sad when people they love and care about miss out on God’s best for them, because they choose to walk in disobedience… when we choose to sin, it will be our loss and we will miss the benefits & blessings…
I found an old email of yours from about 10 years ago that you said you didn't use a lot back than & has 55 in the address if that's still functioning... so I just sent it to that email address...
Barbara, I am looking for your email from several years ago, but I can't find it... is there a place to connect with you on your Cry for Justice blog? or feel free to email me at darylsterk@msn.com & then I will reply...
Thanks for the question, Dad. My simple answer is, “it depends”. So many situational factors. But, Luther and the reformers teach us about the right of conscience, that Christians have a right to “disobey” when unpersuaded of their leaders’ teaching/actions. That’s essentially what Luther did with Rome.
that's quite likely a sign of unhealthy authoritarian leadership... they can fight or flee based on what they believe God is asking of them... each situation is a case by case basis dependent on various dynamics, not a cookie cutter one size fits all.
This post and your exegesis is super helpful, Aaron. Thank you! We plan to read those resources and watch Columbo again. The burden of proof is on leaders to persuade and good leaders will be wise to remember that their actions need to follow the theology they preach. Persuasion happens when there is congruency between honest words and authentic actions. The proof is in the pudding!
So true, Julie, great reminder. Persuasion is more than just words and arguments. Life is the most persuasive of all!
“Persuasion happens when there is congruency between honest words and authentic actions.”
I love this sentence ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Aaron, thanks for this post. I hadn't dug into the Greek word which is (mis-)translated 'obey' in verse 17, so you've added to my understanding of this.
Most church leaders focus on Hebrews 13:17. However, verse 7 in the same chapter says: "Remember those who have the oversight of you, who have declared to you the word of God. See that you look upon the way they live out their life, and follow their faith."
The ones having oversight over the congregation need to be able to rightly divide the word of truth, i.e., rightly explain and apply what the Bible teaches. If the Elders do a poor job of that — if they twist, selectively hammer, and misapply the word — they ought not be in the position of overseer!
Verse 7 also tells us to look at the way the Elders are living out their lives. In other words, use your brain, your capacity to think independently, and ask yourself: Is what this Elder says consistent with what he does?
If you have not been brainwashed, if you observe and are discerning and can think independently, you may notice gigantic inconsistencies between their rhetoric and their conduct.
Often these discrepancies are particularly obvious when it comes to the way Elders deal with interpersonal abuse and oppression, i.e., injustice perpetrated by the more powerful onto the less powerful.
I wrote about this here: https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2020/04/18/what-is-the-basis-for-saying-christians-must-obey-church-elders/
Thanks Barbara! Great thoughts. Strange that we are encouraged to be discerning about some matters (culture, worldliness, etc.), but not others (leader conduct). As you point out, we can’t properly follow our leaders’ faith if we aren’t able to discern when they are straying from Scripture.
I found 9 red flags in the 1984 NIV in this verse alone...
♦1 Obey your♦2 leaders and (#9) submit to their♦3 authority. They keep watch♦4 over you as♦5 men who must give an account. ♦6 Obey them so that their♦7 work will be a joy, not a♦8 burden, for that would be of no advantage to you…
The following is a summary, if you are interested in the expanded version, I can email you my document:
1) "Obey..." is not peitho -> be persuaded by - other Greek words that mean obey
2) '"...your leaders..." is not a NOUN in the Greek, it's a verb -> to lead by example, as someone with more experience/maturity, it's not about a title, but one's actions.
3) "...authority..." this word is not in the Greek AT ALL!!! (authoritarian bias?)
4) "... over..." implies hierarchical authority, the Greek is for, on behalf of, for the benefit of, for their protection, for their good...
5) "... men..." sorry guys, no men in the Greek either, but a gender neutral "they"...
6) "Obey..." Guess what, there is no Greek word here for obey AT ALL!!! again, a word added that supports a probabe authoritarian bias.
7) ..."work"... the Greek is a generic "do this", using "work" implies that those in their care are draining the leaders resources, especially when added with...
8) "burden"... which the Greek is grieving over
9). "submit"... in a non military context, the Greek is understood to mean cooperate/collaborate/share the responsibilities...
Here is my revised version based on my research of the Greek...
HEBREWS 13:17 EXPANDED BASED ON GREEK: Be open to being persuaded by those who go before/are ahead of you/more mature in the faith, and let them influence/instruct you through their integrity and righteous actions & words, as Godly examples for how to live, for they look out for you to spiritually benefit and protect you… follow their example of obeying God’s principles, then their lives are filled with joy as they share with you and about you, excited about what God is doing in your life, instead of grieving for you because you are not doing what’s godly and right… these mature believers are sad when people they love and care about miss out on God’s best for them, because they choose to walk in disobedience… when we choose to sin, it will be our loss and we will miss the benefits & blessings…
Hi Bev, could you please email me your document/notes about the research you’ve done on this verse?
Thanks!
I found an old email of yours from about 10 years ago that you said you didn't use a lot back than & has 55 in the address if that's still functioning... so I just sent it to that email address...
never mind, got it back as non deliverable...
Barbara, I am looking for your email from several years ago, but I can't find it... is there a place to connect with you on your Cry for Justice blog? or feel free to email me at darylsterk@msn.com & then I will reply...
What is a sheep to do if they remain unpersuaded and the shepherd stands firm with “obey and submit”?
Thanks for the question, Dad. My simple answer is, “it depends”. So many situational factors. But, Luther and the reformers teach us about the right of conscience, that Christians have a right to “disobey” when unpersuaded of their leaders’ teaching/actions. That’s essentially what Luther did with Rome.
that's quite likely a sign of unhealthy authoritarian leadership... they can fight or flee based on what they believe God is asking of them... each situation is a case by case basis dependent on various dynamics, not a cookie cutter one size fits all.
Good question, Doug! You might find some answers to your question in these two links:
https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/how-does-church-discipline-apply-in-cases-of-domestic-abuse/
https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/2019/01/25/meek-does-not-mean-weak-but-a-special-strength-that-does-not-pay-back-evil-for-evil-2/
While my website focuses on domestic abuse, it also addresses how to respond to spiritual abuse and Pharisaic church leaders.